Advice on File formats

Little Juice Coupe wrote:

>
> "John McWilliams" <jpmcw.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message

>> TIFFs would be a standard, as would RAW files, then perhaps PSDs, in terms
>> of "archival" quality in images.
>>
>> PNGs just never made it bit time. JPEGs are the most ubiquitous, but among
>> the least "archival".
>>
> It depends on what you mean by archival. For me an archival format is
one
> that in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years one can still use. I don't think PNG
> will make it that long, it is already on the verge of being forgotten by
> most computer users. TIF, DNG and JPG I think right now at least are the
> three that will make it that long if not longer.

I should have said DNG, perhaps, instead of RAW, but both those, and
TIFF and PSD meet my definition of an archival format in that they are
recognized and widely supported and are lossless HQ formats. JPEG fails
the last one.

I'm not concerned that my gramophone records aren't supported by current
hardware. I can get them made into .aiff files any old time.


> In other words they are going to look back and think we were cave people
> with low sloped foreheads.

Uh, some of us are.

--
john mcwilliams
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats 

Well, I do have a few printed using online photo processing services
such as Jessops, Bonusprint and Trueprint.
However, since I have about 3000 photos it's not feasible to print them all.
I can only assume, perhaps dangerously, that by the time my
Grandchildren are interested in looking at photos of their ancestors,
things will have moved on somewhat.
I have numerous photos of my ancestors that I've scanned and restored.
When those photos were taken, some almost 90 years ago, no-one would
have imagined the technology we have available today to digitally
resurrect them. Similarly, we cannot imagine the technologies that will
be available in 90 years time to recover pictures from duff CDs/DVDs/HDs.
It's interesting that many people, most likely the majority, have only a
passing interest in their ancestors. I spend many hours doing
photography and restoration because it's an interest of mine, but having
laboriously restored old photos of our grandparents and later shown them
to the rest of the family, their response is: "Oh yeah". It's merely a
passing interest and no big part of their lives.
Before we had digital cameras I compiled loads of photo albums (I've got
a cupboard full of 'em) but how often did anyone look at them? Very
rarely, if at all!
So I'm not too worried.
If, in the future, a descendant of mine is sufficiently interested in
their descendants images then it's possible that, by then, the means
will exist to extract the data from the pile of backup CDs/DVDs that I have.


Owen Ransen wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:44:01 +0000, Glenis <gh RemoveThis @here.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> My digital camera delivers JPGs (OK, it's not a fancy camera but seems
>> OK for my purposes).
>
> If your photos are important to you, and you want your grandchildren
> to be able to see them you should really really print them:
>
> http://www.ransen.com/Articles/Image_Conservation/Default.htm
>
>
> Easy to use graphics effects:
> http://www.ransen.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats 

In article <b8kbt29j8jcfef6f0ce256u4ccbmobngre.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
tony_cooper213.RemoveThis@earthlink.net says...
>
>On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:21:52 +0000, Glenis <gh.RemoveThis@here.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Yes, the comments from this group have given me food for thought and
>>encouraged more research. As a result, I'm now leaning in the direction
>>of TIFFs.
>>The only other consideration is that if I convert all of my pictures
>>from PNG to TIF I will need at least twice as much storage space. So,
>>it'll be time for another hard drive.
>
>At least you will be doing so at a time when external storage devices
>are wonderfully cheap. You can find deals for external hard drives
>that hold over 300 gigs that sell for under $100.
>
>
>--
>
>
>Tony Cooper
>Orlando, FL

Yes, Fry's Electronics just advertised an ATA-100 300GB (do not recall the RPM
or mfgr.) for US$69. For US$700 you could get a 2TB 10/100/1000 RAID 0 or 5
storage array.

Hunt

Hunt
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On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:42:24 +0000, Glenis <gh RemoveThis @here.co.uk> wrote:

>Before we had digital cameras I compiled loads of photo albums (I've got
>a cupboard full of 'em) but how often did anyone look at them? Very
>rarely, if at all!

I and my friends look at my old albums all the time:

"Look how fat you have got!"

"Look how thin you were!"

"What a fresh face you had!"

"He'd dead now."

"She married that idiot...what was his name...?"

I find photos of landscapes or people I don't know are boring,
its photos of people I know which I go back to every year or
so...


Easy to use graphics effects:
http://www.ransen.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats 

Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?

Minge

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:34:34 -0500, tacit <tacitr.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:

>In article <er2q1q$ebl$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>,
> "Aaron Sun" <asun3.TakeThisOut@gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>> JPG is fine for most purposes. If you set the quality to 12 (Maximum) it is
>> the same as a lossless image...
>
>False.
>
>Absolutely false. Even at quality 12, there is still loss. This JPEG
>setting absolutely IS NOT lossless, as saving an image in JPEG and the
>same image in TIFF and then placing the two images over one another in
>Difference mode will show.
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats 

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 07:15:30 GMT, Daniel Minge <minge DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?
>
>Minge

I lost some JPGs on a CDROM because I left it
on a park bench. Came back an hour later gone!
Lost! JPGs are NOT lossless.


Easy to use graphics effects:
http://www.ransen.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats 

In article <cepvt2tds251oha0dorlo3oedktc5tlc7a DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
Daniel Minge <minge DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

> Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?
>
> Minge

The JPEG file format uses lossy compression regardless of the media to
which it is saved.

--
Photography, kink, polyamory, shareware, and more: all at
http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats 

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:24:11 -0500, tacit <tacitr.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:

>In article <cepvt2tds251oha0dorlo3oedktc5tlc7a.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
> Daniel Minge <minge.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?
>>
>> Minge
>
>The JPEG file format uses lossy compression regardless of the media to
>which it is saved.

There actually is an ISO lossless JPEG specification but few if any applications
use it, certainly not Photoshop.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:24:11 -0500, tacit <tacitr.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:

>In article <cepvt2tds251oha0dorlo3oedktc5tlc7a.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
> Daniel Minge <minge.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?
>>
>> Minge
>
>The JPEG file format uses lossy compression regardless of the media to
>which it is saved.

I was not sure of the posters intention...does he really think
that JPGs are lossless because the file doesn't lose any bits
because it is on a sturdy CDROM support....

His name does not instill confidence in his intentions.


Easy to use graphics effects:
http://www.ransen.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats 

Charlie Choc wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:24:11 -0500, tacit <tacitr.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <cepvt2tds251oha0dorlo3oedktc5tlc7a.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
>>Daniel Minge <minge.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?
>>>
>>>Minge
>>
>>The JPEG file format uses lossy compression regardless of the media to
>>which it is saved.
>
>
> There actually is an ISO lossless JPEG specification but few if any applications
> use it, certainly not Photoshop.


Yep better read this

http://www.hpl.hp.com/loco/
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On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:59:31 +1100, Rob <mesa RemoveThis @mine.com> wrote:

>Charlie Choc wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:24:11 -0500, tacit <tacitr RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <cepvt2tds251oha0dorlo3oedktc5tlc7a RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
>>>Daniel Minge <minge RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?
>>>>
>>>>Minge
>>>
>>>The JPEG file format uses lossy compression regardless of the media to
>>>which it is saved.
>>
>>
>> There actually is an ISO lossless JPEG specification but few if any applications
>> use it, certainly not Photoshop.
>
>
>Yep better read this
>
>http://www.hpl.hp.com/loco/


Yes. Lossy compression in JPG images no doubt
accounts for the fact that not many people
use this format.
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Daniel Minge wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:59:31 +1100, Rob <mesa.RemoveThis@mine.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Charlie Choc wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:24:11 -0500, tacit <tacitr.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <cepvt2tds251oha0dorlo3oedktc5tlc7a.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
>>>>Daniel Minge <minge.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Even JPG's saved to a CD-Rom?
>>>>>
>>>>>Minge
>>>>
>>>>The JPEG file format uses lossy compression regardless of the media to
>>>>which it is saved.
>>>
>>>
>>>There actually is an ISO lossless JPEG specification but few if any applications
>>>use it, certainly not Photoshop.
>>
>>
>>Yep better read this
>>
>>http://www.hpl.hp.com/loco/
>
>
>
> Yes. Lossy compression in JPG images no doubt
> accounts for the fact that not many people
> use this format.
>
>

From the HP site
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

JPEG-LS is the new lossless/near-lossless compression standard for
continuous-tone images, ISO-14495-1/ITU-T.87. The standard is based on
the LOCO-I algorithm (LOw COmplexity LOssless COmpression for Images)
developed at Hewlett-Packard Laboratories.


The term "near-lossless compression" refers to a lossy algorithm for
which each reconstructed image sample differs from the corresponding
original image sample by not more than a pre-specified value, the
(usually small) "loss." Lossless compression corresponds to loss=0.

An earlier version of the standard draft can be found at the official
JPEG Web site.

Comparisons with other lossless image compression schemes.

* Comparisons with the old lossless JPEG (Huffman and arithmetic),
CALIC, FELICS, and PNG can be found in the full paper.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


**** You can get from that site a Photoshop Plugin BTW


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Get HP Labs' software implementation of JPEG-LS
JPEG-LS DLL and Plug-in for Adobe Photoshop

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 >> Stay informed about: Advice on File formats